Kategorie: Project: ‚A football book travels around the world‘

Part III. Unbelievable: ‘629 games in a row, we either won, tie or lost by just one goal’

Published on von Quergedacht by Lisa SchatzKommentar hinterlassen

Let’s come to another topic. You have got so many experiences. The World Cup Championship in 1991 and so on… What has been the best experience for you around the world? It’s quite hard to grab just one but maybe you can try… What are you proud of at most what you’ve reached?

Honestly, the 1991 World Championship is one of the highlights, because obviously what I like most about it is: We beat the world in its own game. And that’s wonderful. And we did it early. We did it in the first World Cup. So for me, that was a wonderfully satisfying moment. But honestly there are other things that I am excited about. We talked earlier about the competitive cauldron. I am very proud of it and I think this is a true statement. I think for 629 games in a row with my college team, we either won, tied or lost by just one goal. So for 629 games in a row…

It’s unbelievable…

Anson Dorrance beobachtet seine Mannschaft. Der Trainer hat viele Ideen, wie man das Fußballspiel an sich positiv verändern kann.
Foto: Athletic Department, University of North Carolina

Which meant we were still competing in every game until the last second. What I love about this statistic is: It shows you can train competitive fire. Whenever I talk with my players about nine different qualities, I talk about self-discipline, I talk about competitive fire, I talk about self believe, I talk about love of the ball, I talk about love of playing the game, watching the game, we talk about grit, about coachability and we talk about connection. And connection is – how you answer this question – do you love your teammates and do they love you. And the most important thing in all those discussions in those nine different categories: The ring that rules them all is competitive fire. And so the thing I am most proud of is that stretch for 629 games in a row, we either won, tied or just lost by one goal. So that is our capacity to compete because obviously, there are days where we didn’t play well but still we hung in there. There are days when we play against teams that are better. But they couldn’t stretch the lead against us and so for me, that’s just an extraordinary statistic. So, I would say the World Championship, I would say that streak.

And then in 2012, my wife has an autoimmune issue and she was basically dying. And the team rallied to play for her. Obviously, in the United States, when you win a National Championship at a college level, but also a pro level, you get a ring. So, I’ve had 22 National Championships but I only wear one ring: The ring I wear is the ring that basically the team played for her. (beams all over his face and shows me the ring) Inside the ring, it says: ‘This one is for you, M’Liss’, because on the tape around each girl’s wrist, they put M’Liss’ name on there. The team came up to me before the semi-final game and told me that they were committing this year’s Championship to her. Then, we won the semifinal and then we won the final. That just meant the world to me. So, I wear one Championship ring. It was the ring where the team played for my sick wife. She did get better. She had a kidney transplant and she is doing much better now. But basically, I would say the World Championship, the 2012 National Championship, and then that run of games where we either won, tie or just lost by one goal.

Wow, great story and great gesture from your team.

International impressions

You told me that you have moved from country to country. When you think about soccer: Has there been one impression about the differences between the cultures which has impressed you very, very much?

Yeah, I guess what impressed me is: I love the people in every country we lived in. It’s sort of interesting because I was born and raised a catholic. So, wherever I lived, I was at catholic schools. The school I went to in Fribourg, Switzerland, was a Mary’s school. The brothers and sisters of Mary. So, my educators, my professors were wonderful. They were basically brothers and priests of the society of Mary. I only won two academic awards in my life. One award was the English award at St. Joseph’s school in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia. That was because I was the only kid in the class that spoke English at home because it was an African school. It was a catholic school, but an African school and it was taught in English. So, I won the English Award. Why? Because obviously, I spoke English. (we laugh) The best part of that award was that the guy that gave me the award was Haile Selassie, the Lion of Judah. So for me, that was an extraordinary award to win.

Whenever my father told the story, they told it as a joke. (laughes) I won the award not because I was a particularly good scholar. It was just because I spoke English at home. So, yeah, I was pretty fluent in English. The only other academic award I have won, was the religion award at La Villa St. Jean in Fribourg, Switzerland. And that was really interesting: When I was at this school, I was recruited into the priesthood. And a part of that was: I would have raging debates with my professors and all these religion classes. And the debates always centered around how to be saved in the Catholic church back on that day. Keep in mind, this is in the late 60s. You had somehow convert to Catholicism or you know, profess your love for Jesus Christ. For me, this was absolutely insane. Because how could some person in Equatorial Africa ever run into a missionary that would convert them? And so what you telling me is: Everyone that doesn’t have any exposure to our church is then condemned. So I would have these raging debates. And it wasn’t just Equatorial Africa. I mean the Equator almost hits the island of Singapore. And the population in Singapore is basically, you know, Chinese and Malay, and Indian.

I lived there for a few months, so I know this very well.  

So, you know what I am talking about. They were all condemning the person so I just couldn’t believe it. And all of a sudden: This missionary around Chapel Hill came to visit me and my wife. I was listening to their lessons. All of a sudden, they started talking with me about baptism for the death. And the thing I loved about the Mormon faith: They condemn no one. Because they embrace the fact. You might not have any exposure of Jesus Christ or anything else. So this is why there is the ceremony in our church where we baptize the death. Staying in the opportunity to choose Christ. So that solved this issue for me that I used to have raging debates with.

I won the religion award in La Villa of St. Jean. That along with the English award at St. Joseph’s school in Addis Ababa in Ethiopia. I won the religion award for the highest advocate. So, what I really appreciated about my religion professors is this: I know I was an absolutely pain in the ass in their classes. They knew I was passionate about these arguments and discussions I would have with them. As a result, I was engaged in every religion class and most of the time through debate. And I was certainly not shy and I would attack anything they said that I disagreed with. As a result, I became very, very comfortable with all the tendencies in our faith. But then converted to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because of this one little caveat which is no one is condemned. Which is the position I think we have to take in any current religion. Because surely, you can understand the extraordinary disconnect or disingenuousness other religion that condemns you if you aren’t exposed to it. Can it become any more ridiculous than that?

Which is why I came to UNC to study philosophy, because for me, these debates are critical. And different from my undergraduate English and Philosophy degree. So these elements for me were very important growing up. Honestly, as you can see for my respect for core values and teaching young men and women to live principle centered lives. For me, this is our mission. This is our mission as human beings: To help each other get to that place where we are all living principle centered lives.

I am just impressed because it is such a broad range of influences from so many different countries like Ethiopia and Singapore. If I just compare it, it’s crazy.

Have you got also a funny story that you’ve experienced about soccer you can tell? Maybe during one of your trips abroad?

Usually, it’s funny story at the expense of a player. I guess my favorite story when I was coaching the men is: Obviously, this is a contact sport. The thing I hate about watching the EPL right now is: Anytime anyone is nicked in the box, they roll over like they had been shot by a sniper and I just hate the performance now in these matches. Because to play football, you got to be very tough and you hit all the time and practice and these people that are hit in the practice don’t roll six or seven times. By the way, to roll six or seven times, it takes an incredible amount of effort. So trust me, if you are really hurt badly, you are not rolling six or seven times. You’re rolling once. And then you stop and then basically, that’s the issue. So what I don’t like is watching all these players roll all over the place. It drives me crazy.

Anson Dorrance’s ideas on how the game could be changed with positive impacts

This is much more in men’s soccer, right? That’s my impression. Women immediately get up again, even in part when they have directly collided heads in a duel. And the men often remain lying on the ground, although nothing has happened. That’s unbelievable!

It is unbelievable and you are right. But the women’s game is – well, we aren’t acting as much as the men. The women’s game is a more honorable game. I really agree with you because I am disgusted with where the men’s game it going. I think we should start to change the rules. I mean, we should introduce the sin bin. The sin bin is what happens in ice-hockey where a violent player is thrown off the ice for two minutes for being too aggressive. I think we have to give our referees more tools and we also have to change the rules in the penalty box. Because if the guys dribbling away from the goal and someone nicks his foot and he collapses on the far corner of the penalty box dribbling away from the goal. It’s a penalty kick. Are you freaky kidding me? There was no justice in there! I think for a penalty kick to occur there has to be a scoring chance. And it has to be intentional by the defender!

What’s your opinion about the German VAR (Video Assistant Referee) in the Bundesliga?

Actually, I have no issue with the VAR. I think that gets to the truth. So, I have no issue with the VAR. But what I have issue with is the amount of penalties that are called they are real penalties, they are scored. There is no real scoring chance. So, I think that’s an issue for me. But also we don’t give the referees enough tools. So what the referee has to be able to do is to basically throw a player off the field. And he could throw the player off the field for anything. I think a lot about that is: The coach has to think about what to do and so do the players. So, now you are a man down. How do you take advantage of it? So, I love all that. I hate penalty kicks to decide the game. I think, you want to go to overtime – first of all, I like the American solution: Golden Goal. As soon as you score a goal, the game is over. So you don’t play addition 30 minutes post game to see who the winner is. And then go to penalty kicks if still tied – no! Someone scores a goal, BANG, game over. But I also think every five minutes, you should throw a player off the field. Both teams. And as soon as the overtime begins, you eliminate offside. After five minutes, it’s 10 against 10. After ten minutes, it’s 9 against 9. After fifteen minutes, it’s 8 against 8. And here’s what I love because this is so interesting: As a coach I would love to decide who I throw off and who I leave on and what my formations going to be, because keep in mind: No offsides anymore!

Would be very interesting, very different.

That would be an incredible game because talk about space!

And also interesting for the spectators to watch the coaches how they decide then. Cause you’ve got the pressure. You haven’t got a lot of time to decide!

Yes! (enthusiastic) The spectators will love it and they will all disagree with the coach. All of a sudden the commentators after the game would have a field day with the decisions they made. But also the game ends with the result. You eliminate offside and there’s going to be an early goal. You eliminating players because I hate penalty kicks. I have spent so much of my time to protect a poor, sweet girl that caused us to lose a National Championship because she missed the goal. It’s not their fault. Let’s figure out a different way where the team loses, not a player loses. And I just hate it. But also, I don’t like the number of penalties right now. Ridiculous! No scoring chance. I like the AR cause the AR is getting to the truth. And if the AR is saying that that guy took a dive, I want that player to be thrown off the field because I don’t like the yellow card system.

You always have to count the cards. Does the player have five cards now?

I feel it. Because basically, the first yellow card is not a penalty. Or another player has to be careful. If the guy has a horrendous foul, penalize him: Throw him off the field! So yeah, have a yellow card means throw him off the field for 20 minutes.

Did you already talk to the Soccer Association and suggest your ideas?

I talked to everyone all the time, also to the journalists, and they just disagree with me. They are traditionalized. I hate it. We should introduce the sin bin! Give the referees more tools!

Or just making a pilot project just to try it and showing them the prejudices?

Well, I run a soccer camp each summer. These were kids and they were all coming in and we have camp tournaments, of course. In the final game at the camp, they play for the 1st place, 3rd place, 5th place etc etc etc. If there was a tie at the end of a game, we were immediately started with no offsides and immediately, every five minutes, throw a player off. And usually, by the time it gets to 5 against 5, there was a result.

What did the players say?

They love it! And the parents love it because the excitement is incredible! No offsides! No one is yelling about offsides or screaming about anything. And, who are you leaving on the field? And then it’s like gladiators. Who are your gladiators? I love it. Finally, there is two players left, one on each team. Who is the gladiator? These are things we can all talk about. And so for me, it’s such a simple solution. And it ends everything. It’s like a three-points-shot in American basketball. That was such a great addition to basketball. And so, yes, let’s keep making soccer more and more exciting. So let’s stop the penalty kick, talk about the most boring and terrifying moment in the game. That’s horrible. It’s not fun to watch. It’s embarrassing to watch. And the only people to leave penalty kicks with satisfaction is the ones who win. No one is excited about the second.

No, it’s horrible for them.

It’s horrible for them, but also for the poor player that missed.

I just remember Bastian Schweinsteiger in the Champions League Final when they lost in Munich 2012. He thought about it a very long time, he said.

I hate that. Because I love my players and I don’t want them to be scared by this.

I understand. Great idea in my eyes to try it out.

There is so much to talk about soccer all the time.

I totally agree, that game is a wonderful game to be part of it.

Do you know to whom you wanna give the book to?

I already gave the book to Madi Pry. The reason I gave it to Madi is, that Madi retired from playing for us because of constant injuries. So I gave it to her because she writes beautifully and I really respect her, and she is going to have it circulating through our team.

It’s great. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Lisa. I am into this conversation. Good luck to you.

Teil II: Anson Dorrance über Sportpsychologie und die Revolution im Fußball der Frauen

Published on von Quergedacht by Lisa SchatzKommentar hinterlassen

Wie wichtig ist Ihrer Meinung nach die mentale Gesundheit oder die Sportpsychologie für Ihre Arbeit? Denn in meinen Augen sind die USA in der Hinsicht viel besser als Deutschland aufgestellt. Es war so, als ob Jürgen Klinsmann die Themen 2004 erstmal überhaupt aus den USA nach Deutschland gebracht hätte, und alle in Deutschland dachten: „Oh, was macht der denn da?“. Er installierte einen Sportpsychologen, mehrere Fitnesstrainer und so weiter. In meinen Augen war das so: „Oh, lass es ihn einfach machen“, und dann erreichte Deutschland bei der Weltmeisterschaft 2006 den dritten Platz – was eine großartige Leistung war. Wie wichtig ist das für Ihre Arbeit und wie hat sich das von der Zeit, als Sie als Trainer begonnen haben, bis heute entwickelt?

Nun, ich denke, alle großen Trainer sind Sportpsychologen. Auch wenn sie das nicht studiert haben und auch wenn sie sich nicht dazu bekennen, es zu zeigen. Denn eines der wichtigsten Elemente auf höchstem Niveau ist natürlich das Management von Männern und Frauen, die Art und Weise, wie man seine Spielerinnen unterrichtet.

Und das ist eine Form der Sportpsychologie. Denn wir müssen verstehen, dass jeder Mensch anders ist und jeder anders behandelt werden muss, weshalb das Klischee sehr zutreffend ist. Ja, die meisten Spielerinnen, die durchschnittlich sind, wollen in Ruhe gelassen werden. Und es gibt gute Spielerinnen, die trainiert werden wollen. Aber man muss vorsichtig sein, WIE man sie coacht. Deine Fähigkeit, einzuschätzen, wie du mit jeder Spielerin umgehen wirst, weil jede Spielerin anders ist, ist also ein entscheidender Maßstab für deine Fähigkeit, die Lebenslage jeder Spielerin zu verstehen. Das ist Sportpsychologie.

Wir haben hier bei der UNC eine wunderbare Sportpsychologin. Als ich 1976 als Trainer der Männer angestellt wurde, hatten wir hier keinen Sportpsychologen. Wir haben nicht viel darüber gesprochen. Wer war also der Sportpsychologe? Nun, ich denke, ich war es. Ohne eine Ausbildung zu haben. Ich hatte einen Abschluss in Englisch und Philosophie.

Aber mit einigen der Jungs aus dem Männerteam hatte ich sogar selbst zusammen gespielt. Weil ich so jung eingestellt wurde. Ich habe Jungs trainiert, mit denen ich schon zwei oder drei Jahre zuvor gespielt hatte. Ich denke also, dass wir alle in unserem Beruf als eine Art Sportpsychologe anfangen.

Aber es gibt natürlich einige, die sehr gut sind. Weil sie es studiert haben. Und diese Leute haben wir jetzt. Wir haben eine wunderbare Sportpsychologin namens Jeni Shannon, die sich alle paar Wochen mit meinem Team trifft, und das ganze Team liebt sie. Sie ist in allem sehr gut. Sie kann gut mit den Elementen umgehen, die wir in unserem Spiel verwenden. Aber sie kann auch sehr gut mit anderen Problemen umgehen, die unsere Kinder während dieser Pandemie haben. Das ist eine ganz andere Stärke, mit der die Kinder auf das College kommen. Denn früher bedeutete das College zum ersten Mal Freiheit. Sie können ihre Heimat verlassen, ihre Eltern sind nicht da, um sie zu wecken und zum Unterricht zu schicken. Oder ihnen zu sagen, was sie essen oder wann sie ins Bett gehen sollen. Jetzt sind sie zum ersten Mal in ihrem Leben der Kapitän ihres eigenen Schiffes. Und wenn man jung ist, macht man natürlich die Hälfte der Zeit etwas mit dem Schiff, und am Ende lässt man es auf Grund laufen, weil man ein Idiot ist.

Anson Dorrance findet, dass die Sportpsychologinnen der University of North Carolina einen super Job machen.
Foto: Athletic Department, University of North Carolina

Was man tut, ist zu lernen, sich oft selbst langsam aber sicher durch Trial and Error zu organisieren. Aber auch, wenn man ein gutes Wertesystem hat und richtig erzogen wurde, kann man sich selbst langsam anpassen. Doch genau hier kommen die Sportpsychologen mit dieser Pandemie ins Spiel. Die Sache mit der psychischen Gesundheit ist ein ernstes Problem. Diese Fachleute können so viel besser damit umgehen als ich. Ich möchte Jenni Shannon und den Sportpsychologen hier an der UNC ein Lob aussprechen, und ich gehe davon aus, dass sie im ganzen Land, und auch in deinem Land, fantastische Arbeit leisten, um diese jungen Frauen und Männer ins gelobte Land zu bringen. Und das ist nicht nur das gelobte Land der Leistung der Spielerinnen, sondern auch das gelobte Land der Anpassung an die reale Welt, des Erwachsenwerdens und all dieser verschiedenen Dinge, die offensichtlich für uns alle eine Herausforderung beim Heranwachsen darstellen.

Nimmt Jenni Shannon an den Trainingseinheiten teil oder hat sie ein Büro, in das jede junge Frau oder jeder junge Mann mit Schwierigkeiten oder Problemen kommen und mit ihr sprechen kann? Wie funktioniert das?

Ja, das ist eine Möglichkeit, wie es abläuft. Sie können Termine mit ihr vereinbaren, und sie kann sich mit ihnen unter vier Augen treffen. Bei uns ist es aber auch so, dass wir uns alle paar Wochen am Ende des Trainings treffen. Wir haben einen Pavillon, der ein offener Unterstand ist, und dort trifft sie sich mit ihnen. Wenn es also regnet, kann sie trotzdem mit der ganzen Mannschaft sprechen. Wir haben kein Training auf dem Campus. Sie müssen sich nicht ins Auto setzen, irgendwohin fahren und sich mit ihr treffen, denn sie ist bereit, direkt zu ihnen zu kommen. Sie kommt also zum Team.

Offensichtlich geht es dann um allgemeine Themen. Aber jede weiß – und das sagt sie ihnen auch: „Wenn du ein persönliches Problem hast, das du in dieser Sitzung nicht zur Sprache bringen kannst, und das du mit mir persönlich und unter vier Augen besprechen möchtest, dann steht meine Tür immer offen. Schicke mir bitte eine E-Mail, und wir werden eine Zeit finden, die für uns beide passt, und dann können wir uns in meinem Büro treffen“. Für uns ist es also beides. Sie trifft sich mit dem Team und sie trifft sich mit den Jugendlichen, die sich privat mit ihr treffen wollen.

Wow, das ist großartig. Ich habe nämlich den Eindruck, dass es in Deutschland sehr langsam vorangeht, dass sich wirklich alle diesem Thema annehmen. Vor allem beim Fußball der Männer oder im Juniorenbereich – in den besten Ligen wird teilweise gesagt: „Ach, die spinnen doch. Sportpsychologen – ich bin nicht verrückt“. In meinen Augen verstehen viele den wirklichen Sinn dahinter nicht.

„An meiner Hochschule hier, der University of North Carolina, werden Männer und Frauen im Grunde genommen gleich behandelt.“

Lassen Sie uns über ein anderes Thema sprechen. Wie hat sich der Fußball der Frauen in den letzten Jahrzehnten, seitdem Sie angefangen haben, bis heute entwickelt? Glauben Sie, dass Sie die besten Trainingseinrichtungen haben? Ich habe mich im Internet informiert. Sie haben ein großartiges Trainingsgelände, ein großartiges Stadion… Fehlt da noch etwas oder ist es so, dass Sie perfekt arbeiten können und alles haben, was Sie für die Trainingseinheiten und für die Ausstattung brauchen?

An meiner Hochschule hier, der University of North Carolina, werden Männer und Frauen im Grunde genommen gleich behandelt. Wir bekommen also alles, was die Männer bekommen, und umgekehrt spielen wir im selben Stadion, das wir uns übrigens auch mit den Lacrosse-Teams teilen. Wir haben hier also eine Lacrosse-Mannschaft für Männer und Frauen. Sie spielen im Winter und im Frühjahr. Wir spielen im Herbst.

Für uns Deutsche wäre das ein Traum. Bei uns läuft das nicht so. Vielleicht wissen Sie, dass in Deutschland immer mehr Frauenteams zu den Bundesligavereinen der Männer kommen. Sie gründen Frauenteams. Aber sehr, sehr langsam… Wir schreiben das Jahr 2022.

Offensichtlich haben wir eine andere wirtschaftliche Plattform. Diese wird vollständig von zwei Teams unterstützt. Sie wird von der American-Football-Mannschaft und dem Männer-Basketball unterstützt. Diese beiden Teams erwirtschaften das Geld für uns alle. Es gibt also keinen Grund für eine Diskriminierung, wenn das Footballteam oder die Fußballmannschaft der Herren mehr Geld bekommt als wir. Nein. Wir alle teilen uns die Einnahmen aus dem Fußball und dem Basketball der Männer zu gleichen Teilen auf.

In Deutschland habt ihr ein anderes Modell, das Vereinsmodell. Danach gilt: Je mehr Geld man ausgibt, desto besser muss man sein. Wenn die Spitzenteams in Deutschland also einen Spieler kaufen wollen, wollen sie natürlich so viel Geld wie möglich ausgeben. Und die Vereine, die viel Geld verdienen, wollen es nicht teilen. Das ist verständlich, da ein direkter Zusammenhang zwischen der Höhe der Ausgaben der einzelnen Vereine in Deutschland und ihrem Erfolg besteht. Eine der Gefahren für die Hierarchie in Deutschland besteht also darin, dass die Herrenmannschaften beschließen, in die Frauenmannschaften zu investieren. Denn dann ist das Geld, das sie für die Frauen ausgeben, Geld, das sie nicht für die Männer ausgeben. Und die Frauen bringen kein Geld ein.

Das ist das Problem.

Ja, das ist das Problem. Im Grunde weiß ich es also zu schätzen, dass du dieses Thema ansprichst. Denn was ich meinen Mädels immer wieder sage, ist, dass es hier einen Rechtsstreit gab (Cindy Parlow, die Präsidentin des Fußball-Verbandes der Vereinigten Staaten, hat geholfen, ihn beizulegen), bei dem das Fußballnationalteam der Frauen den Verband US Soccer auf gleichen Lohn verklagte. Und natürlich wollen sie – weil unser Nationalteam der Frauen viel erfolgreicher ist als unser Nationalteam der Männer – wie die Männer bezahlt werden.

Ich habe über Megan Rapinoe gelesen, ich mag sie wirklich sehr! Sie ist großartig.

Ja, sie kämpft für gleiche Bezahlung. Was Rapinoe noch nicht verstanden hat, ist, dass man für die gleiche Bezahlung auch die gleichen Einnahmen haben muss. Und im Moment gibt es auf professioneller Ebene und bei der Weltmeisterschaft keine gleichen Einnahmen. Es wird also unmöglich sein, überall eine gleiche Bezahlung zu erreichen, ohne die Lücke bei den Zuschauerzahlen zu schließen.

Das sage ich meinem Frauenteam auch immer wieder: Wir haben eine Profimannschaft, die nur 25 Minuten von uns entfernt ist. Sie heißt „North Carolina Courage“. Und was wirklich interessant ist, ist der Unterschied zu den Männern: Die männlichen Spieler hier, das sind alles College-Kids, das sind alles Amateure – was sie die ganze Zeit tun, ist nichts anderes als Fußball zu schauen. Sie sehen sich die EPL [Premier League; Anm. von LS] an, sie sehen sich die Bundesliga an, Bayern ist eine großartige Mannschaft, die man beobachten kann. Sie sehen sich die Champions League an, aber auch Borussia Dortmund, weil sie für die amerikanischen Spieler erfolgreich sind. Das sind also die Mannschaften, deren Spiele die Männer die ganze Zeit anschauen.

Schaut mein Frauenteam irgendetwas? Auf keinen Fall. Sie gucken gar nichts. Deshalb sage ich meinen Mädels immer: „Wenn ich dich über gleiche Bezahlung schwadronieren höre, nenne ich dich eine Heuchlerin. Denn solange du hier bei der UNC bist, hast du kein einziges Fußballspiel angeschaut. Und du bist nie rübergegangen und hast Geld bezahlt, um North Carolina Courage spielen zu sehen. Und jetzt, wo du selbst bei den Carolina Courages spielst, willst du nicht heucheln, dass jeder kommen soll, um dich spielen zu sehen, obwohl du nie hingegangen bist, um sie spielen zu sehen?“

Ich versuche also unter anderem, diese Kultur des Fußballs der Frauen zu ändern. Und ich versuche, unsere Kultur des Fußballs der Männer anzunähern. Was hat denn der Fußball der Männer, was wir nicht haben? Der Fußball der Männer hat Menschen, die ihn unterstützen. All die Menschen, die gleichen Lohn für Frauen fordern, müssen sich also überlegen, wie sie die Leute dazu bringen können, deren Spiel zu sehen.

Das ist es also, was man tun muss. Obwohl ich Rapinoe sehr bewundere: Sie hat den geschäftlichen Aspekt dieser Sache nicht erkannt. Sie begreift nicht, dass Bayern München seine Position in der Bundesliga verlieren würde. Sie verstehen also nicht, dass 15 Millionen Dollar pro Jahr für ein Frauenteam 15 Millionen Dollar Verlust für die Männer bedeuten würden. Sie könnten einen weiteren Linksverteidiger von Borussia Dortmund abwerben und so weiter und so fort. Das muss also irgendwie unter einen Hut gebracht werden.

In meinen Augen ist es schade, aber das lässt sich nicht ändern, weil es zu schwierig ist. Der Fußball der Männer ist viel weiter entwickelt.

Nein, nein, nein, ich meine, man kann sich entwickeln. Das Beste ist, nicht darüber zu jammern, sondern etwas dagegen zu tun. Und der Weg, etwas dagegen zu tun, besteht darin, dass die Menschen mehr Spiele ansehen und unsere Zuschauerzahlen steigen, so wie in Barcelona, wo kürzlich bei zwei Spielen in Folge über 91.000 Zuschauende kamen.

Ich schaue sehr gerne dem Frauenteam von Bayern München zu. Es ist so verrückt im Stadion, ich mag es wirklich. Es ist so familiär, man kommt zusammen – auch die verletzten Spielerinnen, die nicht spielen können, sitzen auf der Tribüne, schreiben Autogramme, machen Fotos mit den jungen Fans und so etwas könnte man bei einem Spiel der Männer in der Allianz Arena nie erwarten. Das wäre nicht möglich. Niemals.

Das liegt daran, dass die Männer das nicht machen müssen. Die Frauen müssen es. Und das wird übrigens eine Revolution. Eine Revolution muss die Art und Weise sein, wie wir unsere Gesellschaft einbeziehen, wir werden es hier mit unserem Stadion tun. Und ich habe viel Geld ausgegeben, um den Fußball der Frauen in meinem Stadion [das Stadion der UNC ist nach Anson Dorrance benannt; Anm. von LS] zu fördern. Und wir haben sogar mehr Zuschauende als die Männer. Das hat seinen Grund, denn ich tue alles, um das Stadion voll zu bekommen. Früher habe ich einen großen Teil meines persönlichen Einkommens für das Marketing unserer Mannschaft verwendet. Ich verstehe, dass ein weiterer Schritt getan werden muss. Und was ist das für ein Schritt? Wir müssen gleiche Zuschauerzahlen haben.

Part II: Anson Dorrance about sports psychology and the revolution in women’s soccer

Published on von Quergedacht by Lisa SchatzKommentar hinterlassen

How important would you say is mental health or sports psychology for your work? Cause in my eyes, the US are much better than Germany and it has been like Jürgen Klinsmann has brought it from the US to Germany in 2005 and everybody in Germany was like ‘Oh, what is he doing?’. He installed a sports psychologist, fitness coaches and so on. In my eyes, it was like: ‘Oh, let him just try’ and then Germany reached the 3rd place – which was such a great achievement – at the World Cup 2006. So, how important is it for your work and how did it develop from the time you started as a coach until today?

Well, I generally think all the great coaches are sport psychologists. Even if they haven’t studied it and even if they don’t profess to exhibit it. Because, obviously one of the most critical elements on the highest level is man or women management, the way you teach your players.

And that’s a form of sports psychology. Because what we have to understand is that everyone is different and everyone has to be treated differently which is why the cliché is a very accurate one. Yeah, most players that are average do want to be left alone. And there are good players who do want to be coached. But you have to be careful HOW you coach them. So your ability to assess how you are going to relate to each player because each player is different is a critical measure of your capacity to understand each player’s circumstance. Which is sports psychology.

We have a wonderful sport psychologist here at UNC. When I was hired in 1976 to coach the men, we did not have a sports psychologist here. We didn’t talk about it much. So, who was the sports psychologist? Well, I guess I was. With no training. I had an English and philosophy degree.

But some of the guys on the men’s team I actually played with. Because I was hired so young. I was actually coaching guys that I have played with two or three years before-hand. So for me, initially, in our profession, I think we all start as a form of sports psychologist.

But clearly there are those that are so good. Because they studied it. And we have those people now. And we have one wonderful sports psychologist by the name of Jeni Shannon that meets with my team once every couple weeks and the whole team loves her. She is very good with everything. She is good with the elements that we are playing with in our game. But she is also very good with other struggles that our kids would have during this pandemic. This is a different strength for kids to come to college with. Because in the old days, college was about freedom for the first time. They get to leave home, their parents aren’t there to wake them up and send them to class. Or tell them what to eat or when to go to bed. So now, for the first time in their lives, they are the captains of their own ships. And of course, when you are young, what you end up doing with that ship half the time, well, you end up having it run into the ground because you are an idiot.

Anson Dorrance thinks UNC’s sports psychologists do a super job.
Photo: Athletic Department, University of North Carolina

What you are doing is learning to manage yourself slowly but surely through trial and error often times. But also, if you do have a good value system and even raised properly, you can slowly adjust governing yourself. But this is where the sports psychologist comes in. Because they came in here with this pandemic going on. The mental health thing is a serious issue. And these professionals are so much better at handling it than I am. And I give Jenni Shannon and the sports psychologists here at UNC and my assumption is, across the country, and across your country as well, I am sure they are doing a fantastic job trying to take these young women and young men to the promised land. And not just a promised land of the player performance, it’s the promised land of adjusting to the real world, maturing into adulthood and all these different things that are obviously our challenge for all of us growing up.

Is Jenni Shannon a part of the training sessions or does she have an office and every young woman or man who has some struggles or problems can go to her and talk to her? How does it work?

Yes, that’s one way it happens. They can schedule appointments with her and she can meet with them privately. But the way it also happens here is every couple weeks at the end of practice we come together. We have a gazebo which is an open shelter, and she would meet with them there. So if it is raining she can still speak to the entire team. We don’t have practice on campus. They don’t have to jump into their cars, drive somewhere and meet with her because she is willing to come right to them. So she comes to the team.

Obviously during those moments, what she is telling them is about general issues. But everyone knows that – and she tells them this: ‘Please, if you have a personal issue you can’t bring up into this meeting, and you want to speak with me about it personally and privately, please know that my door is always open. Please email me and we’ll find a time that is mutually agreeable for both of us and then you can meet with me privately in my office.’ So, for us, it is both things. She meets with the team and she meets with the kids who want to meet with her privately.

Wow, that’s great. Cause in my impression, in Germany, it goes very slowly that they really all accept this topic. Especially in men’s soccer or youth men’s soccer – in the best leagues, they also partly tell like ‘Oh, they are crazy. Sports psychologists – I am not crazy’. Lots do not understand the real sense behind in my eyes. Well, let’s talk about another topic.

‘Basically, at my school here, the University of North Carolina, they treat the men and the women the same.’

How did women’s soccer develop in the last decades, when you have started until now? Do you think you have got the best training facilities – I looked it up on the Internet. So, you have a great training ground, you have a great stadium… Is there still something missing or is it like perfect work and have got all what you need for the training sessions and all facilities?

Basically, at my school here, the University of North Carolina, they treat the men and the women the same. So everything the men get we get and vice versa we play in the same stadium that we also share with the Lacrosse teams, by the way. So we have a men’s and women’s lacrosse team here. They play in the winter and spring. We play in the fall.

That’s a dream for Germans. Does not work the same way here. Maybe you know about Germany, now, more and more women’s teams come to the men’s Bundesliga Clubs. They start women’s teams. But very, very slowly… It’s 2022.

Obviously, we have a different economic platform. The economic platform is totally supported by two teams. It’s supported by the American football team and by men’s basketball. And those two teams make all the money for all the rest of us. So, there is no reason to discriminate, to have the men’s football team, soccer team, get more money than we do. No. So, we all basically sort of divide up the revenue from football and men’s basketball and it is shared equally.

In Germany, your model is different. You have the club model. This one is a model where the more money that is spent, the better you have to be. So, the top teams in Germany, obviously, if they want to buy a player, they want to spent a maximum out of money. And so these clubs that are making lots of money don’t want to share it. And it’s understandable because there is a direct correlation between the amount of money each club spent in Germany and their success. So, one of the things which threaten hierarchy in Germany for the men’s teams is if they decide to splurge on the women’s teams. Because then obviously, the amount of money they are spending on the women is money they are not spending on the men. And the women are not making money.

That’s the problem.

Yeah, that is the problem. So, basically, I appreciate that you are bringing this up. Because what I tell my girls all the time, because there was a lawsuit here (Cindy Parlow the US Soccer President helped settle it), where the US women’s national team sued US Soccer for equal pay. And of course, what they want – because our women’s national team is much more successful than our men’s team – they want to be paid like the men.

I read about Megan Rapinoe, I really like her so much! She is great.

Yes, she is in on the fight for equal pay. The element that Rapinoe doesn’t understand yet is that for equal pay you gotta have equal revenue. And right now, at a professional level, and at a World Cup level, there is not equal revenue. So, it’s gonna be impossible to structure equal pay everywhere without closing the gap with attendance.

So I told my girls this all the time: We have a professional team within 25 minutes of us. They are called ‘The North Carolina Courage’. And what’s really interesting is this is unlike the men: The men’s players here, and these are all college kids, they are all amateurs – what they do all the time is nothing but watch football. They are watching the EPL, they are watching the Bundesliga, Bayern is a great team to watch. They watch the Champions League, but also, Borussia Dortmund because they have success for the American players. So, these are teams that the men watch all the time.

Do my girls watch anything? Absolutely not. They don’t watch anything. So I tell my girls all the time: ‘If I hear you, basically, bloviating, about equal pay, I’ll call you a hypocrite. Because while you are here at UNC, you never turned on a football game. And you never went over and paid money to watch the North Carolina Courage play. And now that you are even playing on the Carolina Courage, don’t want you to have that hypocrisy to now pretend that everyone should come watch you play, when you never went over to watch them play?’

So, part of what I am trying to change is that culture of women’s football. And I am trying to get our culture close to the men’s game. So what does the men’s game have that we don’t have? Men’s game has people that are supporting. So, all these people that want equal pay on the women’s side, well, what you have to do, is to figure out ways to get people to watch your game.

So, that’s what you have to do. So though I have huge admiration for Rapinoe, she doesn’t embrace the business aspect of this. She doesn’t embrace that fact that Bayern Munich would lose their position in the Bundesliga. So, they don’t understand that 15 million dollars a year on a women’s team would be 15 million dollars lost for the men. They could steal another left-back from Borussia Dortmund etc etc etc. So, this has to be somehow reconciled.

In my eyes, it’s a pity but it can’t be changed cause it’s too hard. It’s much more developed.

No, no, no, I mean you can develop. The best thing to do is not to whine about it but to do something about it. And the way to do something about it is to have people watch more games and build our gate like Barcelona with over 91,000 in attendance for two games in a row recently.

I like it so much, watching the women of Bayern Munich. It’s so crazy in the stadium, I really like it. It’s so familiar, you can come together, also the players with injuries who can’t play, they’re sitting on the tribune, they write autographs, take pictures with the young fans and you could never expect something like this at a men’s game in the Allianz Arena. Wouldn’t be possible. Never.

That’s because the men don’t have to do that. Women have to. And, by the way, that`s going to be a revolution. A revolution has to be the way to embrace our communities, we are going to do it here with our stadium. And I’ve spent a lot of money to promote women’s football in my stadium. And we actually outdraw the men. So we get more attendance than the men and there is a reason for that because I kill myself to pack the stadium. I used to use a lot of my personal income to pay for marketing for our team. I understand that there is another step that has to be taken. And what’s that step? We got to have equal attendance.